God’s Word was written for angels too!

One might assume that because angels live in heaven that they do not need to learn any more about God. But, if God is Infinite Love and Wisdom, you would think that the Creator would offer angels the ability to continue exercise their minds over the long haul of eternal existence.

Even we terrestrial beings of the planet earth would find it quite boring on this temporal plane if we could not learn something new each day.

Since the Lord God instructs through the Holy Word, and the Word existed prior to creation (John 1:1-3), we can assume that angels have access to the Word. However, do angels interpret its stories and narratives the same way we do?

The reason why I ask this silly question is that angels do not live in the physical world of time and space. Yet, all the stories in Scripture take place in time and space. How could they understand physical events when living in a non-material realm?

Mystic and theologian, Emanuel Swedenborg, suggested that angels interpret Scripture differently – by removing its stories from any involvement with time and space. How would they accomplish this theological feat?

Angels turn the literal sense of each word in Scripture to its psycho-spiritual equivalent. So, instead of seeing the Holy Word as a mere literal and historical account of things, they distill higher, spiritual meanings from its stories.

Angels do not interpret the seven-day Creation Story found in Genesis as an unfolding of physical events. They interpret this story as the seven steps that an individual’s heart and mind goes through in acquiring an “inner” paradise (epigenesis) from God.

Here is a brief overview of the Angelic take on the Creation Story:

LET THERE BE LIGHT – In the beginning, the human heart and mind starts off in spiritual darkness and in a complete void concerning God. God moves to enlighten us from this darkness (day one).

SEPARATING THE WATERS – Once God is recognized we can begin to separate spiritual knowledge from worldly knowledge (day two).

DRY LAND & PLANTS – By separating this information we can put our feet on firm ground, that is, on solid faith in God. From this faith grounded in the mind, new spiritual thoughts take root, grow, flower, fruit, and yield seeds (day three).

GREAT LUMIINARIES – Now humans have, from God, a faith that can serve as a beacon in times of darkness, and serve as a more powerful light when the warmth of love is added to faith (day four).

CREEPING THINGS – Our faith now becomes more animated by love, which is symbolized in the biblical story by animals that move (day five).

MAMMALS, MAN & WOMAN, DOMINION – Love increases and is exalted through the representation of warm-blooded animals appearing. True “humanness” now emerges onto the scene. God commands us through our faith to gain dominion over all the various qualities of thoughts and feelings that live in our hearts and minds. Our inner reality has now become a garden, where everything in it has been arranged according to God’s wisdom and order (day six).

REST – God’s work is finished (day seven).

So angels remove the aspects of time and space from the biblical narratives by interpreting them as symbolically addressing things taking place within the human heart and mind (which is a person’s spirit). These higher symbolic meanings allow angels to learn deeper concepts about faith throughout an eternity.

The Sacred Word would not be sacred unless it contained God’s Divine Holiness, which is infinite. Therefore, God’s Infinite nature can only be expressed in a Holy Document that contains deeper levels of meaning! 

The significance for each of us about all this is that since we humans are inwardly spirits, we too, have the capacity to interpret these higher meanings from the Holy Word.

In fact, this is one of the biggest secrets concerning the Second Coming. REVELATION is the Lord’s coming back to reveal these deeper things to us!

Are you ready?

About thegodguy

EDWARD F. SYLVIA, M.T.S. Philosopher/Theologian Edward F. Sylvia attended the School of Visual Arts in New York and received his Master of Theological Studies at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, CA and a Certificate of Swedenborgian Studies from the Swedenborgian House of Studies. He is a member of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences (C.T.N.S.) and the Swedenborg Scientific Association (S.S.A.). Award-winning author of "Sermon From the Compost Pile: Seven Steps Toward Creating An Inner Garden" and "Proving God," which fulfills a continuing vision that God’s fingerprints of love can be found everywhere in the manifest universe. His most recent book, "Swedenborg & Gurdjieff: The Missing Links" is an edgy collection of anti-intuitive essays for personal transformation that challenges and inspires. He has been a student of the ideas of both Emanuel Swedenborg and George I. Gurdjieff for over thirty years. Read more about TheGodGuy, his books and his ideas at http://www.staircasepress.com
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130 Responses to God’s Word was written for angels too!

  1. enreal says:

    WOW this was great! your thoughts are infinite… I dream of angels… yet never dreamed these thoughts… truly something to wrap around ones mind! thank you

  2. thegodguy says:

    Dear enreal,

    Many more wonderful things concerning God, heaven, angels (and yourself) still await you! Stay tuned.

    Spiritually yours,

  3. Mel Steffor says:

    “The Second coming of God”. God has returned in 2006, and he told me the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. The meaning is this:
    In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death.
    What does this mean? It means that Birth is Last and Last is Birth.

  4. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    Yes, being is becoming. Things subsist perpetually as they are made – for subsistence is perpetual existence, and conservation is perpetual birth.

    I would be interested in what else God told you.

    Spiritually yours,

  5. irishanglican says:

    So what is “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave HIM (lit. gave unto Him) to show unto His servants (bondservants), even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it (them) by his angel unto His servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.” (Rev. 1:1-2) ? (Question)

    And what of verse three: “Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are WRITTEN THEREIN: for the TIME is at hand.? (Question)

    Fr. Robert

    PS..back to life, and seeking God’s triune grace – always! Thanks godguy

  6. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Glad to hear from you again (and jump to a new topic)! Hope things are back to normal.

    Your questions need to be addressed with nothing shorter than a college thesis. Neither one of us has the time to do this.

    However, the issue at hand is whether or not the Holy Word contains levels of meaning that transcend the literal sense of its narratives. So, for the purpose of brevity, let me focus on one point that is expressed in your quotes from Revelation.

    The passages of Scripture you refer to suggest that special spiritual events “must shortly come to pass,” and that the “time is at hand.” These statements were made 2000 years ago. So-o-o-o, what is near at hand? What great event did we miss?

    If the Second Coming has not yet happened, then the suggestion that it is near at hand was a false one. Since I believe in the sacredness and authority of Scripture, these same words must have “higher” meanings – which would spare the integrity of the Word from being judged simply on the accuracy of its literal statements.

    I have at least opened up the conversation of this big topic in a manageable way.

    Spiritually yours

  7. irishanglican says:


    In some sense we are back to normal. But the loss of a young mother to suicide (leaving her two young children) will be forever a mystery? Even religious people suffer! This is a subject that we also cannot hide from!

    As to “this” subject blog? The question really is just like the other, i.e. the doctrine of God! Who HE is, and how HE reveals HIMSELF!

    Fr. Robert

  8. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I wish I could offer some insight to your suffering and loss, but I do not know the person or the conditions she found herself in. She is now in the Lord God’s hands.

    As to the doctrine of God:

    God reveals Himself through the Word. We can both agree on that! However, a bigger question is – how does God reveal His INFINITE WISDOM and LOVE within a finite document?

    Orthodox Christianity does not even consider God’s Infinite Nature as an issue when interpreting the Holy Word (exegesis)

    The Word IS God. God is INFINITE. So how do you squeeze infinite information into the canonical Bible?

    How did God’s Holy Word, which existed before the creation of the universe come into the world, and, be made flesh from the Lord’s Advent? Did the Lord’s internal organs, tissues, cells and its myriad organic process not represent something deeper about the Word’s living truth?

    Orthodox religion is unprepared to see God’s universal patterning principles in all created things. These patterning principles are hidden in the stories of the Word – or the world and all its complexity could not have been created by the Word. God reveals His true glory as all these things are made known to us.

    Spiritually yours,

  9. irishanglican says:


    The doctrine of God is really the whole of the biblical revelation! The real difference between us IS the Word of God Itself! The eternal Logos! I feel that we must use the text, “in spirit and truth” as it unfolds itself. This comes by study…2 Tim. 2:15! And I am myself convinced that Christianity can really only be expressed by dogmatic theology. Truth can be simple, but not really easy in the sense of reduction and mere simplicity. Like discipleship, it demands our all! And the biblical revelation is a life- time study and reality!

    And as to the Orthodox Faith and Theology, you sadly know almost nothing! I am not Orthodox in the technical sense, but I have been reading and seeking to study their faith and fathers for many years. Again, you only are making a mere caricature of any idea of the Orthodox Faith. As Father Serguis Bulgakov said: “Orthodoxy does not persuade or try to compel; it charms and attracts.” I believe in and have experienced something of the mystical faith and reality of the Christian revelation, but the longer I live, and the more I seek to find and understand my triune God. The more I am simply humbled and brought to my end. We are but beggers before our God of grace and glory! I have been once again brought to this reality in the death and loss of a human life and soul! But God is God, and the Father of my Lord Jesus Christ!

    “To the elect lady and her children (all of the Mystical Body of Christ), whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
    Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” (2 John 1-3)

    Fr. Robert

  10. Mel Steffor says:

    In 2007 God had this to say:
    “We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day”

  11. Mel Steffor says:

    God also gives examples and proof so that you can understand his messages better. For the message of First is Last and Last is First. Gods example is: Mike Douglas died on his birthday. You have to die to be born in Heaven. Death and Birth are the same instant. (Please note that Mike Douglas and Michael Douglas are two different people.)

  12. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    I am not as interested in what you believe God told you as I am in your understanding of God’s words.

    This blog serves to clear things up – not keep people in intellectual obscurity. This blog attempts to offer insights into riddles and not just throw more riddles at people.

    Spiritually yours,

  13. Mel Steffor says:

    For the proof of the message : – “We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day”. – It is hard to put the whole proof here due to it’s length. To put it briefly, it is told in the story of 3 famous people. Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin and Nancy Reagan. Mike Douglas dies on his birthday. Merv Griffin dies the day after Mike. Nancy Reagan and Merv are born on the same day.
    Now God gave me information about 3 people, but I couldn’t put it together to make any meaning out of it. That night in a waking dream I hear “We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day”. Now I get it. If he hadn’t right out and told me, I would never have been able to figure this one out.

  14. Mel Steffor says:

    People have told me that the bible is complete. That God has said everything that he wants to say. That is not true. God had more to say.

  15. Mel Steffor says:

    “The second coming of God is at hand.” Take head and make note. God has returned!

  16. irishanglican says:

    I have a great respect for the reality and history of Christian Mysticism. This is seen in the West especially in the ancient monastic order of the Benedictines. Which are seen in both the Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Communion. And then of course we have the whole Eastern history also, the Desert Fathers, etc. But this form and history of the mystical life is regulated somewhat by the theology and discipline of years of Christianity, and the people who have written down their experiences therein. The old saying, ‘talk is cheap’ comes to mind. We must have the substance of a real Christology, which will always be a real and profound: “For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain.” (St. Paul, Phil.1:21)

    The real Christian life has always been a cruciform: a spirituality of redemptive suffering – 2 Cor. 4:10-11!

    Fr. Robert

  17. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    We agree that the doctrine of God is the whole of biblical revelation. We disagree what “whole” means. You believe that the “whole” is simply revealed by the literal interpretation of the Holy Word. I believe that the “whole” includes the literal sense PLUS deeper levels of meaning.

    But since your theological expertise is in the historical tradition allow me to ask you a couple of historical questions – and play by YOUR rules only!

    Have you ever heard of a story of a man who is commanded to build a boat that was pitched from within and without, so that he, his family, and beasts of the field could survive a great rain and flood? In this story the man sends out a raven and a dove to find dry land. After land is found an altar is built.

    If you guessed it is the story of Noah’s Ark you are only half right. I was actually describing an account taken from the ancient Babylonian Epic of “Gilgamesh.” This story predates the Hebrew Scriptures and even has its origins in a more ancient text derived from the Sumerians.

    Did God plagiarize the Flood story from ancient legends? Or, was the doctrine of God revealed to more remote civilizations by an older text – a more ancient Holy Word?

    The canonical Bible itself refers to “additional” Sacred historical stories such as “The Wars of Jehovah” (Num. 21:14,15) and prophetical stories such as “Enunciations” (Num. 21:27-30). Add to this the fact that Joshua and David mention a sacred book called the Book of Jasher (or the Book of the Upright).

    This is evidence that a more ancient Word of God existed before the Israelitish Word.

    Therefore, if you have not taken these ancient Holy documents into account, then what do you mean by the “whole” revelation of God?

    Spiritually yours,

  18. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    I am impressed by your waking dreams. The idea that we are born (reborn) when we die is a big one. However, this has nothing to do with either birthdays or death dates. The drama of death and rebirth can take place right now – if we decide that our old ways of living must die and we begin living according to God’s tenets. This “death and rebirth” is a spiritual rather than physical event.

    I agree with you that God has more to say. Yet, the Holy Word is complete. What is missing is a deeper understanding of its narratives.

    I also agree with you that the Lord has returned – but it will be through a deeper understanding of His Holy Word. So the Lord has returned to some and not to others.

    Spiritually yours,

  19. irishanglican says:


    For me, the whole of the “Biblical” revelation of God is Judeo-Christian. That would include the so-called Apocrypha, at least the best of it..and it’s historical. The Wisdom Books reflect the ideas and theology of Jesus of Nazareth, who is “the” Christ also. (Just One!) So the whole reality of the true Christian Faith is always historical…Judeo-Christian!

    You keep saying “deeper meaning”, and that the literal text is some mere pedagogical or simple teaching. Well there is some truth to this, for in reality before we can go off into some aspect of any “deeper” spiritual search, we must have our “elemental” or basic teachings in and of Christ, (see, Heb.6:1-2). But have it we must!

    Also there is one called Origen in the Church of God. I am sure you have heard of him! And he in spite of his many weaknesses, was a profound student of the Word of God! He interpreted scripture allegorically and showed himself to be a Neo-Pythagorean, and Neo-Platonist. Also his views of a hierarchical structure in the Godhead, were the first to express the regal nature of the Father in the Trinity of God.

    As to the nature of the Flood, sure Israel and the Hebrews had other ancient legends around them. But when it came to “their” Text and Scripture, they held to the power of their oral history. And Moses was central here! (See, St. John 5:45-47)

    For the Judeo-Christian there can be no other authority, than both the Judeo and Christian texts…Old and New Testaments, with the Church of God to help interpret them, (1 Tim. 3:15-16). And this includes the Ecumenical Councils, and for the Anglican and the Orthodox Church, the first Seven.

    If you admit yourself to a “canonical Bible”, how can you not hold to this reality? At least in measure.

    Fr. Robert

  20. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    You keep forgetting points already made. Swedenborg never dismissed the Holy Word as to its literal meaning. He always insisted that any deeper meaning had to be supported by the literal text, which acts as a support and foundation of its more rarefied, spiritual, and heavenly meanings.

    Elemental teachings are transparent in the literal sense – such as “loving God above all else and the neighbor as oneself.” But the Lord’s revealed truths are INFINITE, and therefore contain endless things that bear witness to the Lord.

    You simply have NO response to God’s Infinite Nature as having to be accounted for in the WHOLE REVELATION OF GOD.

    Swedenborg”s father was a Lutheran Bishop, therefore he grew up under a powerful influence of the elemental or basic teachings of Christ. Swedenborg started studying the Bible at the age of four.

    Besides Origen, there was Augustine, Jerome, the Venerable Bede, Bernard of Clairvaux, and Erasmus who represented an “inner” sense tradition and explored deeper meanings within the literal text of Sciptuture. So by no means was Swedenborg alone in this tradition.

    But Swedenborg has taken this tradition further than any other theologian.

    Spiritually yours,

  21. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward (if I may),

    My point is that you cannot have some higher meaning, without the literal or “transparent” as you say. The Cross and Death of Christ was historical, but ever so INFINITE! Only from here, do we have any aspect of a redemptive and spiritual sense! (St. Mark 15:34)

    And I have a response to God’s Infinite Nature…’bow down and worship HIM!’

    If you may remember also, I have read some of Swedenborg. I found his idea of a spiritual world in which the living and the dead constituted one single being, to be of great interest. But this can only be a spiritual and mystical reality for me. As it connects to the One Mystical Body of Christ! And as I have stated, if Emanuel was off into necromancy? This simply cannot be allowed or followed! I admit there can be a fine line here, but we must respect it! As I have said, I deeply believe and respect true mystical thought, as “In Christ”…Pauline, Johannine, etc. But this is a spiritual category, and the mystical only flows out of here.

    I have Evelyn Underhill’s book on Ruysbroeck (signed, 1915..one of my gems). But a great mystic soul was Ruysbroeck, his view of the Trinity of God…”the fathomless Abyss that IS the Being of God.”

    And by the way, Erasmus idea of the inner sense of both tradition and the text of Scripture, are not that of Swedenborg. I am not sure that we can even put Swedenborg in this “tradition”.

    One can see the good providence in certain ways with Swedenborg’s Lutheran upbringing! No doubt this “elemental” to Christ was foundational in his life also.

    Yours too in the Spirit of Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  22. irishanglican says:

    Please expand on “Swedenborg has taken this tradition further than any other theologian.” And just what is this “tradition”? (I too see tradition in a positive light, as is the question.)

    Fr. R.

  23. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    It sounds like we are agreeing somewhat again. Yes, Christ’s death on the cross was historical. But there was a deeper drama being played out beyond the physical event. This inner drama can only be grasped if one knows the dynamical relationship between the spiritual world and the physical world.

    The crucifixion was more than a physical event. The literal sense of Scripture only portrays the Lord as being rejected by most of humankind, BUT, contains another, deeper story line – the Lord’s combat with the hells. None of these deeper narratives are available to humans without a multi-leveled exegesis of Scripture.

    Spiritually yours,

  24. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward (If I may use this, will be “my” nickname for you? We are both godguys! lol)

    Yes, we would be closer here. And if I may, this would be the only place from which to move into deeper thought! The Robe of Christ’s death and righteousness is much more than symbol and even metaphor, it is the grand reality of spiritual and living victory, over death, sin and simply our loss of God. As St. Paul says: thanks be to God!

    “I have often wondered whether we might not say that the Christian doctrine of the Atonement just meant that in Christ God took the responsibility of evil upon Himself, and somehow subsumed evil under good.” – James D. Denney

    Fr. Robert

  25. irishanglican says:

    PS…but it needs to be said, that Christ and His Cross & Death, will always be a scandal in a broken and fallen world! (See, Phil. 3: 18-19 / St. Luke 2:34)

    Fr. R.

  26. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I like James D. Denney’s quote that the Lord “somehow” subsumed evil under good. It is the “somehow” that Swedenborg addresses more profoundly than any other theologian in history!

    The Lord’s physical death did not conquer sin. You conquer sin by fighting against sin. This cosmic combat was hidden from the eyes of those who persecuted Him and watched him die on the cross. But angels had a front row seat and watched the real fight that was taking place from behind the scenes, that is, in the spiritual realm.

    Spiritually yours,

  27. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    Late night here as I catch up on stuff.

    Well just when we were hav’in some agreement..lol. While I would agree that the most profound aspect of our Lord’s death is in the spiritual, we cannot diminish the physical either. And if you follow the theology of both St. Paul and St. John, you can see that the death of Christ was certainly vicarious. The scripture is very plain to show that Jesus Christ died for sinners! “Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous (just) for the unrighteous (unjust), that He might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in [the] Spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) The Greek is very plain “On behalf of.” Christ died for others, and not for Himself, or because of Himself. And even the cosmic battle was HIS alone for others! As St. Paul says in Col.2:14-15..”And HE has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross; having despoiled the principalities and powers (supra-mundane evil powers, Gk.), HE made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” The IT of course is HIS own vicarious death! This is the NT doctrine of the Atonement of Christ! There is simply no other!

    And we can never conquer sin by “our” mere fight against it, we will lose every time! We combat our sin and sins by-in and through the death of Christ alone – “But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” (Gal. 6:14) And only here can St. Paul bear the brand-marks of Jesus on his body (Gal.6:17). Not to redeem himself, but simply to share in the death-life and resurrection of Jesus (2 Cor. 4:10-11). But in Philippians 3:10, St. Paul places the resurrection power first, before “His (Christ) suffereings”. This to show that he simply shares in the already won life and power of the Risen Christ!

    Also while St. Paul (and also St. John) calls Christ’s death a “propitiation” which is a conciliation and expiation (Rom. 3:25). It is the central seat and place of God’s saving presence and gracious revelations for sin and sinners! (See also, 1 John 2:2 / 4:10)

    This is the NT doctrine of the Death and Atonement of Christ!

    Your statement that Swedenborg “somehow” addresses the “death” (subsumption of evil) of Christ “more profoundly than any other theologian in history”; betrays the reality of the most certain theologian in history, St. Paul. With St. John a close second!

    Yours in the Death of death, through Christ alone, who is the Victor alone,

    Fr. Robert

  28. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    There was no reconcilation, or the extinguishing of any sin, or reparation of mankind’s offenses by the Lord’s suffering on the cross, dying, and being resurrected.

    How the heck can someone stand in for us and take on our sins? Are you saying that the Lord substituted Himself for us as a cosmic “stunt man.” The only way the Lord can take on our sins is to actually be TEMPTED by them – all of them!

    What else would constitute spiritual combat?

    The Lord took on a human body so that the hells could attack Him through His inheriting our same human traits – with all its frailties and compulsions. Through the medium of the human flesh the Lord was able to be tempted and subdue all of evil’s influences.

    This subjugation of hell does not wipe away anyone’s sins but keeps the door open for salvation. Only God can conquer hell and that is why He came into the world. So, when we implore the Lord for our salvation we gain the help of the ONE who was completely victorious.

    The passion of the cross was not redemption, but the last big temptation which the Lord endured from His human imperfections (which were activated by the hells). All through the Lord’s life on earth he endured temptations, and after each victory, He perfected the union between His Human and His Divine Nature (exinanition) and made them one.

    Spiritually yours,

  29. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    Now we have come into the real light here. Your position does not stand the light and revelation of the historic Word of God! To say that the Lord Jesus suffered for His own “human imperfections” competely betrays the whole reality of the NT revelation. I quoted many verses, both Pauline and Johannine, which show the textual reality and theology of Christ’s complete Vicarious Atonement. You have said nothing to change that, nor can you. It would simply be erroneous even if you tried.

    Sadly now the error and bankruptcy of this Swedenborg doctrine bertays itself once again, next to the historic and biblical theology of the Judeo-Christian Scripture.

    I think we have come full circle. To deny the Atonement of Christ, is as the Scripture says: “They will even deny the Master who bought them..” (2 Peter 2:1).

    When you attack the Person of Christ, you also attack the Atonement of Christ!

    “John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (St. John 1:29)

    Fr. Robert

  30. thegodguy says:

    Dear, dear, Fr. Robert,

    We respectively disagree. So there is no need to send me straight to hell.

    The Lord could not have had a human body of flesh without enduring its flaws. He did not simply endure his own human perfections – he gave the hells a finite medium by which spiritual combat could take place. It was the Lord against the ENTIRE hell. No FINITE evildoers in hell can directly attack an INFINITE God. But, if God takes on a finite human body the stage is set for the battle.

    I think we just both have to sit back and wait for the Lord’s PHYSICAL return, which I expect is your take on the Second Coming (an event that was near at hand 2000 years ago). I will bet you that some of my readers were anxious to hear you explain why the Lord promised that His heavenly kingdom was coming soon – when such an event obviously has yet to happen on earth in the way it is stated in the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE.

    This is where the literal sense of Scripture is not transparent.

    Spiritually yours,

  31. irishanglican says:

    Dear Sir Edward,

    It is not I myself personally that sends your doctrine to the abyss, but the Judeo-Christian scripture and doctrine. I have listened with patience and real intent, but when we come to the doctrine of the Atonement of Christ, we must at the very least allow the obvious biblical truth and revelation of the vicarious nature of the Atonement. You make all these statements and assumptions, but you never have a line of the historic Judeo-Christian Text. And just some mere allegorical twist of the scripture text will not do! (See, 2 Peter 3:16)

    And the doctrine of the Second Coming cannot really be separated from the whole reality of who Jesus Christ is as Lord and Savior! See, 2 Peter 2:16-21 / 2 Peter 3 / Rev. 1:7.

    And it needs to be noted again that Emanuel Swedenborg denied both the Trinity of God and the vicarious atonement! I can only see a false prophet here myself. As Swedenborg did seek to make further revelation. See, Rev. 22:18-19. Of course this text has some form of hyperbole, but that does not diminish the reality and spiritual nature of the right theology here of the person and work of Jesus Christ!

    Finally, your doctrine (and Swedenborg’s) are in reality just a new form of the old gnostic heresy. This is my take at least…see Col.2:8-10, with 1 John 4:1-6 / 2 John 7-9. * The biblical doctrine of the true Incarnation demands that Christ is both perfect Man & perfect God! “He being one Son, dual in nature, not dual in Person. Wherefore we (the Church) do confess, preaching the truth that Christ is perfect God and perfect Man.” And this in not the doctrine of Swedenborg!

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  32. irishanglican says:

    PS… Also it needs to be noted that the Scripture teaches that Christ was sinless…1 John 3:5, “And you know that He was manifested to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.” Also even in Incarnation, God was not and never able to sin! God cannot sin!

    “For we do not have a High Priest not able to sympathize with the weakness of us, but having been tempted (tested) in every way in similar fashion, yet without sin (or lit. sin apart).” – Heb. 4:15

    In Christian theology, we call this ‘ The Impeccability of Christ’!

  33. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Again, we simply disagree. Why do you insist that someone’s ideas have to be sent to the abyss. The fact that the literal sense of Scripture might hold deeper meanings is not an attack on God’s Word but the revealing of more of its wonderful facets.

    You seem more concerned about your tradition then on being open to the possibility that the Word is a multi-dimensional document.

    You yourself know that the Lord spoke in parables (exclusively!) and that there are highly symbolic images portrayed in Scripture.

    As to the atonement of Christ, you believe that the Lord came into the world as perfect God and perfect Man. First of all, the fact that the Lord lived as a child means that He was not fully developed as a “man” in any physical sense. Did the Lord not have to learn as a child would, or did He speak His parent’s tongue right from the manger?

    Did He pick up carpentry by Himself or did He learn this trade from His father?

    The atonement (AT-ONE-MENT) of Christ was not a reconciliation between God and man but a reconciliation (and union) between the Lord’s Human and His Divine natures. The Lord did the WILL OF THE FATHER – that is, He brought his flesh and human compulsions into line with the inner dictates of His Divine Spiritual reality (Jehovah). This unity was accomplished by the Lord’s humility (exinanition). All the fury of Hell stood in the way of this process by tempting the Lord to succumb to His human nature. This temptation was intensified on the cross which is evident by the Lord asking why God was “forsaking” Him. These are not the words of a perfect man or a perfect God, but represent the final anguish and hope of the human flesh to be put first.

    The vicarious death of the Lord is not rational. How can human sin and guilt be removed behind one’s back? The removal of sin involves a real change of one’s character. Why would the Lord tell people to wash the “inside of their cup” if such introspection and activity was unnecessary?

    The forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as a government bailout or the forgiving of our financial debt. The Lord’s victory over sin makes it possible for each of us also to have victory over sin – if we seek the Lord’s help. The focus of religion is for men and women to STOP being sinners. This is not a retroactive process. The Lord God is interested in our future, not our past.

    Spiritually yours,

  34. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    This is no simple disagreement, the Person & Work of Christ is both a spiritual and doctrinal-theological imperative!

    And you have turned the literal hermeneutic into a dichotomy, which is sadly just wrong for true exegesis.

    I cannot go into deeper detail on a blog, but sadly your knowledge seems to lack badly in both the theological, and in logic. I don’t have the time and space to take on every one of your far off statements. My point is that your theology and logic seems far removed from my mind and understanding. And though I won’t call myself a theologian, I am a Judeo-Christian theolog at least. In the East the term “Theologian” is only given by the Church, and not just any and everyone that has theological degrees, etc.

    Whatever your full and final positions are concerning the Judeo-Christian scripture, so far you are not within the historic, doctrinal and theological framework. It is just that simple!

    You have not sought to try to deal with the biblical text at all, especially as it regards the death of Christ in its most certain vicarious and substitutionary nature! The whole NT corpus points to this reality! And certainly At-One-Ment is not the meaning of the Atonement. It is sacrificical! No other meaning can be given to Texts like Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 4:10. And both are the words of the Apostles St. Paul and St. John…Apostolic Doctrine! Indeed only one statement is possible: Christ’s death is the atoning sacrifice for our sins! And anything less is not acceptable!

    Also as to the “person” of Christ, Swedenborg’s doctrine is certain error..more along the lines of Modalism, and of the worst kind, a form of Adoptionism!

    Fr. Robert

  35. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    You merely argue for your position.

    The Lord promised a quick return – 2000 years ago. Please explain this to me and my readers. How else are we to put all our faith (and brain cells) in the verity of your historic, doctrinal and LITERAL theological framework if there is no rational reason for why the Lord is taking so long to return?

    You give your church and councils authority that they do not have. God does not pass along His Holiness to men. All things Holy are the Lord’s alone (this is what Swedenborg maintained). If you call your church Fathers Holy, and that their decisions are sacred, then you have turned them into idols.

    How can an Infinite God sacrifice Himself? God is impervious to the dangers of a finite physical world.

    Spiritually yours,

  36. irishanglican says:

    My Sir Ed,

    I seek to reason for truth! Argument alone will change no one! As the Fathers said, ‘Faith Seeking Understanding’!

    As to the Second Coming, this was a problem for the first century church also. Since Christ did not come back in their life time. Note, the Gospel of St. John really says nothing directly about the visible second coming. Though it certainly makes “spiritual” reference to the believer being with Christ in the glory (John 14:3; 17:24). It is in John sort of a ‘realized eschatology’! I will leave that for your readers to look into and study.

    As to “holiness”, God does give us some aspect to this through His own person, and the new nature. “He who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct, for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16) And this is not perfection in this life, but “faith, hope and love – In Christ”! See also, 1 Cor.3:17, the Christians body and life is to be a holy temple to the Lord! But this also involves growth – Eph.2:21-22. And here an Orthodox sacramental would be Christ is present in and to the soul, the desire of theosis…transformation and recreation in Christ!

    As to the Church, and her sacred decisions (Matt. 16:18-19), we can only trust a living and loving God. But the Church is always a pilgrim people and body on earth. Only God will finally judge His own “workmanship”! Beware to judge GOD’s Church! I believe Coleridge was right in saying that ‘Christianity without a substantial Church is vanity and dissolution’!

    “The mystery of the Church”, its “invisible dimension,” is “larger than the structure and organization of the Church”, which are “at the service of the mystery.” – John Paul II

    As to Christ, and the reality of the “Incarnation”, this is part of the mystery of the kenosis, Christ did empty Himself of form and power, but never the deity of God. (Phil.2: 5-11) This central in the sacifice of Christ on the cross! (St. Mk. 15:33-34; see also verses 37-38-39!)

    Fr. Robert

    PS Ed you need to catch-up on some theology of the Incarnate Christ. Try reading one Hans Urs Von Balthasar! He gives us a radical re-interpretation of the traditional Christian axiom of the divine immutability and impassibility of God in Christ!

  37. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    If you scroll back to the post which started this discussion you will see that it introduced the idea that angels interpret Scripture differently than terrestrial humans. I provided a very simple example of angelic interpretation through the seven-day creation story in Genesis.

    This angelic interpretation involves what Swedenborg called the “science of correspondences.” In other words, physical events can correspond to (symbolize) deeper, spiritual events. This rarefied method of interpretation can be extended to the NT, including its miracles.

    Let’s use as a NT example, Christ’s walking on water. As I am sure you know, this event described the Lord as coming to the rescue of several of His disciples who were in a small boat and caught in a dangerous storm. The Lord calmed the storm and peace was restored.

    As impressive as this miracle was, angels interpret the event differently. Walking on water symbolizes that God’s truth rises above the truth of mortal men. The calming of the storm symbolizes that when God’s TRUTH enters the scene the tempest or “troubled waters” humankind finds itself in is restored to a state of “inner” peace.

    The angelic interpretation is far more DOCTRINAL than the literal interpretation!

    Angels seek out the doctrinal and theological things that Scripture contains – not its historical accuracy. So I ask, what doctrinal things and theology can be derived from a physical miracle (no matter how much it “wows” us)? The Lord God is interested in SAVING OUR SOULS, not in saving our REAR ENDS!

    Therefore, if you wish to believe that the idea that deeper, doctrinal things are contained within the physical events of Scripture is “far off,” you are certainly entitled to that belief. But you limit your understanding of how the Holy Word depicts God’s eternal and Infinite Wisdom.

    Where mortal men and women see only physical events, angels derive profound doctrine from every iota of the Holy Word.

    Spiritually yours,

  38. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    This has been a very interesting trip for sure. I am always amazed at the religious or spiritual need and nature of man, or humanity. But you like so many are enamored with “knowldege” over true spiritual need. This was the problem with Gnosticism, and it continues to be a perennial problem today. This has always been a perversion of Jewish and Christian truths!

    Your (and Swedenborg’s) idea that “Angels” are the medium and mediator for the knowldege of God is certain gnostic doctrine. And in reality Swedenborg fits this Gnostic element squarely in many places! I hope your readers will check this out?
    The basis always for Gnostics is the idea that gnosis or knowledge is the immediate knowledge of spiritual truth without the mediation of the Church, or the Churches sacraments and any sacramental life. And most important it is both a practical and doctrinal denial of Christ’s Incarnation and His One Mediatoral Life! (See, 1 Tim. 2:5-6). Note, that the whole life of Christ is also contained within His work of being a ransom. This is a sacrificial reality!

    The only Book in the Bible that talks about the aspect of Angels and any reality of the text and it’s revelation, is the Book of Revelation. But here it is historical and part of the texual revelation and one time history. Now it is our part to read it and seek to understand…Rev. 1:1-3; 22:18-19!

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  39. irishanglican says:

    PS…”O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you, turning away from the profane, empty utterances and oppositions of the falsely named “gnosis-knowledge”, which some professing concerning The Faith have missed the mark.” (1 Tim.6:20-21)

  40. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I am glad you were not bored by our discussion.

    What is the sacrament of Baptism? Is it merely a physical cleansing? Surely you have the cognitive powers to see that it a “sign” to represent a deeper, or inner cleansing of one’s heart and mind.

    Your faith tradition offers few insights concerning angels, heaven, hell, and the details of life in the spiritual world -knowledge which is in our best interest and is sorely NEEDED.

    Theologically, I would prefer to error on the side God’s Infinite Wisdom then on the literal and historical accuracy of Scripture.

    Swedenborg believed that there was more to God’s Holy Word than meets the eye. You refute this. So be it!

  41. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    Gnosticism is never boring, but surely titillating! And thank you to allow me “my” cognitive power to see the spiritual though the sacramental sign! This is the teaching of St. Paul, St. John, St. Peter, Augustine…plus!

    My Judeo-Christian Faith allows me to see what God “has” revealed, nothing more and nothing less! Our needs are real! As Jesus said: “in spirit and truth”! But we cannot begin to understand God without first seeing ourselves as God sees us: sinful beings, dead to sin. Always in great need of God! We must have God’s “regeneration” to truly understand, and “see”! (Titus 3:5, St. John 3:3)

    There is a real difference between religion and regeneration, we call it redemption!

    As I stated Swedenborg denied the Trinity and the vicarious atonement, but he upheld something of the orthodox theology of heaven and hell, Jesus Christ as the manifestion of the eternal God (though very badly with some aspect of both modalism and adoptionism – both not Christian doctrine), and the Second Coming of Christ, and the establishment of the New Jerusalem. But, I believe he is squarely Gnostic! And as St. Paul wrote misses the mark as to The Faith!

    Fr. Robert

  42. irishanglican says:


  43. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Why can you not extend your cognitive power to see the SPIRITUAL in all things of Scripture – that is, interpreting physical qualities into their corresponding spiritual meanings. When this method is employed ONLY doctrinal concepts result. Is this a fluke?!

    As I brought up earlier, Swedenborg agrees with you on the topic of sin. But he disagrees with you on how sin is removed.

    Redemption IS regeneration!

    The purpose of religion is to apply God’s commandments to our life. This is the re-birth process. Otherwise you place Christians above the LAW and diminish personal responsibility. What do you think it means to enter into a covenant with God – some ransom? Only criminals make use of ransom, not a PERFECT God!

    Labeling Swedenborg as a Gnostic, modalist, or adoptionist, is no substitution for sincere intellectual debate.

    Even your claim that St, John says nothing directly about the visible Second Coming does not put aside the Lord’s promise that His heavenly kingdom was close at hand. This only makes sense if Revelation addresses an event that is to take place within one’s heart and mind. This would put the Lord’s Kingdom within anyone’s reach, that is, within a single generation – any generation.

    The Lord said He had more disclosures to make but that His disciples could not “bear these things.” What is it about these disclosures that the disciples, or anyone else, could not bear?

    THE ANSWER – It is the very thing that YOU cannot bear – that deeper doctrines are contained within the Holy Word.

    I can bear these things.

    Spiritually yours,

  44. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    I hope you are cognitive of the reality of Gnosticism? It is a very real and complex religious system since the biblical time. It has pagan religious origins also. And it is alive today!

    It appears at least to me that your whole religious system is based upon this form of so-called Christian Gnosticism. When we read the early gnostics, Valentinus, etc. they were centered on “knowledge” (gnosis) in this kind of higher or deeper life and understanding mode. Also your own claim: “I can bear these things”! Smacks of the claims of “gnosis”! If you are Gnostic, just come out and admit it? Because your flag waves “Gnosticism” proudly! Again, the Gnostics were always comparing their higher, deeper life to that of the mere ordinary Christians.

    In the second and third centuries we see the principal anti-Gnostic writers, such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Hippolytus. They appealed to the plain sense of Scripture as interpreted by the tradition of the Church and insisted on the identity of the Creator and the supreme God, on the goodness of the material creation, and on the reality of the earthly life of Jesus, especially of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. Man needed redemption from an evil will rather than an evil environment. And it is here also that we can see an even earlier gnostic view in the docetism that 1 John combats. Also here your Swedenborgin idea that Christ needed to “perfect” himself, before or on the cross is simply gnostic!

    And the idea of “ransom” is a biblical and apostolic one…St. Matt. 20:28 / 1 Tim. 2:6.

    You have a bloodless “doctrine” of the death of Christ without HIS ransom, for redemption is regeneration only thru the bloodshedding and death of Christ, for us!

    Finally, for me there can be no honest intellectual debate without both historical and theological labels. We simply must define, “truth from error”!

    Fr. Robert

  45. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert.

    Your theology is quite crude, in spite of its use of sophisticated terms and labels.

    The Roman crucifixion was designed for maximum HUMILIATION rather than maximum BLEEDING. The Lord had the power to come off the cross yet He decided to go through with the whole humiliating ordeal. In this way the flesh became fully subordinate to the Divine Will.

    How does the Lord’s physical bleeding and death redeem humankind from an evil will? In fact, the world offers lots of evidence that humankind has retained an evil will.

    What is the Glorification? Is it God merely overcoming physical death (which is a non-challenge since God cannot be killed)? Or, is it TRUTH triumphing over evil and falsity?

    Evil wants to compel, even by force if necessary. Love never compels. If the Lord had come off the cross He would have displayed PHYSICAL power, compelled belief, and taken away mankind’s free will. This is what hell was tempting the Lord to do – take control by physical force not moral strength. Resisting this “evil human propensity to dominate over others” was the last and final temptation that the Lord endured on the cross.

    To change an evil will requires a reorganization of heart by applying spiritual values to life. The Lord exemplified this process during His life in a human body – glorifying His human and His Divine natures. The Lord wants us to follow Him in this effort (carrying the cross).

    Spiritually yours,

  46. irishanglican says:

    Dear Sir Edward,

    Thank you, you could not have said something much more real and relevant about my theology! The fact of the incarnation, is toward the death of Christ, He did not come to give us anything else more important than our personal salvation! And this was the cost of His own life in death! The reality and simply cude nature to His death could not be more important also. He died as He lived: for the life of the sinful world!

    This is the theology of St. Paul, Jesus Christ the Last Adam! (Rom. 5!)

    “For Christ, when we were still weak, in due time on behalf of the ungodly – died!” Rom.5:6

    Read the whole chapter of Romans 5!

    Fr. Robert

  47. Mel Steffor says:

    God was here. “God has returned.” I heard him myself. He left proof that he was here. He was not here just for a moment. He was here for more than a year. He spoke only to me. I couldn’t see him, he is a spirit, but I could hear him. I wrote it all down. God spoke volumns. God himself contradicted the Bible. I believed the bible was his own words. God had a different story. Gods spoken word has precendence over the writen word. I believe God spoke the truth. The Roman’s put their hand in the Bible. God agrees that Heaven, Hell and Death are real. He also said that you don’t have to believe in him or Jesus to get into Heaven. Good Atheists go to Heaven. He also said that bad Christain can go to Hell. He even spoke of those that will die. Now you don’t have to believe me either but God did leave proof. God wants to be believed.

  48. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    If the Lord died for a sinful world why is it still sinful? We must each enter into partnership with God. You cannot take humans out of the equation in battling against sin.

    You talk as if the crucifixion could remove a leopard’s spots! The Lord can only remove the sins that we identify in ourselves and ask His help in combating and in removing. We have to resist evil! This shows God exactly how we wish our lives to be changed. Personal salvation is precisely that – personal. We each sin differently.

    Sin cannot be removed in spite of ourselves or through some hocus-pocus. Otherwise the commandments are to be thrown out of the window.

    Spiritually yours,

  49. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    I answer your question with a Pauline scripture text, “Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that HE might deliver us out of this present evil world (age, Gk.), according to the will of our God and Father: to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Gal.1:3-5)

    The whole salvation reality is spiritual at present. Only at the eschaton will the Lord come and both resurrect the dead ‘In Christ’ and fully redeem those who are left in their body of this broken and sinful age, (Phil.3:20-21).

    Until then we live in this age of ‘the already but not yet’, as the Christian “reckons” himself dead to this world. See, Romans 6…especially verse 11.

    For a supposed spiritual man of God you are ignorant of these things? This is basic Christian doctrine and spirituality! The Christian is a person dead to sin, thru the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, and ourselves spiritually therein. (See, Col. 3:1-3)

    Hardly “hocus-pocus” but the reality of Christ “within”! “Christ in you the hope of glory (glorification).” (Col. 1:27)

    Fr. Robert

    This is our live and faith as “In Christ”!

  50. irishanglican says:


  51. Mel Steffor says:

    One of the first things that God said was that he didn’t agree. He told me that what I thought was true was false. Now I didn’t like being told I was wrong. God and I quarreled. It got emotional. I told God to talk to someone else. Why was he talking to me to begin with. I didn’t ask for this. Later I said I was sorry for what I said. I accepted that I was wrong. I just didn’t like being told I was wrong. Then he talked more.
    Now no one wants to be told they are wrong. They don’t want to hear that everything that they think and hold to be true, is false.
    I think that is why all of the writing I did last night is gone. It just vanished. Someone didn’t want to hear the truth just like I didn’t.

    Mark my word. “The Second Coming of God is at Hand”. Take heed. God has returned. In came in my land, and not in the clouds for all to see. The Romans made that up.

    If you want to delete his words from here that is your right. Gods word will be heard. Mark this well, God has returned to rebuild a broken Church. His word will be heard, if not here it will be heard else where. How do I know this? I came straight from God, God will make it so.

  52. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    I have not forgotten you. While I cannot comment on your mystical talents or God’s talking directly to you, I can comment on some of the points you make.

    You made three points that I find Interesting:

    First, that God contradicted the Bible. Swedenborg would partially agree in that not all of the canonical Bible represents the True Word of God. In a previous post entitled, “God’s Holy Word vs. The Canonical Bible,” I address this topic.

    Second, you point out that a “bad” Christian can end up in hell and that a “good” atheist can enter heaven. Swedenborg would agree. Being good is more important than being right. A good person can later receive true doctrine in heaven from God’s angels. God’s kingdom is a kingdom of love – all true doctrine is derived from spiritual love.

    Third, in order to make your second point, people must have entered into heaven or hell soon after the death of their physical body. In other words, God does not resurrect dead physical bodies during the “end times.” Those in the spiritual world have spiritual bodies consisting of spiritual substances.

    As to your mystic powers, please read Swedendborg’s work entitled “Heaven and Hell.” It can be ordered from the Swedenborg Foundation. I would be interested in finding out how many of your disclosures match Swedenborg’s.

    Spiritually yours,

  53. Mel Steffor says:

    You are Judged on your own works and deeds.

  54. Mel Steffor says:

    Thank you for your reply Good Guy. I will look into the book “Heaven and Hell” by Swedendborg Foundation. I leave you now. Mel Steffor

  55. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Your biblical quote from Paul does not in itself conflict with my belief. That the Lord “gave himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil world” is something I agree with. But God is in the details.

    The Pauline text recognizes that men and women have a part to play (by the words “might deliver”). The Lord defeated evil and sin so that we can gain that saving power when we approach the Lord. But we cannot simply ask the Lord to remove all our sins with a snap of the finger. We need to identify the precise sins that we have committed and are prone to. Otherwise, repentance is watered down and vague.

    Religion is of LIFE, we have to live God’s commandments.

    The Lord Jesus Christ was Jehovah in the Flesh! By resisting the temptations of the flesh was the means by which Jehovah combated and became victorious over evil. How else could the Lord’s actions on earth glorify the Father and be Himself glorified?

    “Jesus said, Father glorify Thy Son, as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh.” (John, 17:2)

    You seem to believe that the power over flesh involves blood, death and resurrection, while I believe that the power over flesh was the victory over its sins. Swedenborg’s theology is one that addresses the Lord’s true strategy against sin. “Ransom” and “blood” does not even begin to address the actual issue of evil and sin – unless this is just another one of your church’s great “mysteries.”

    In that case, your powers of reasoning have closed shut on this issue!

    Spiritually yours,

  56. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    Yes, the Second Coming is NOW! It will not be a physical event but a paradigm shift. The Lord is at present revealing new doctrines to the world. These deeper doctrines will throw more light on the “mysteries” of faith. The battle of Armageddon actually represents a resistance to these new revelations.

    Spiritually yours,

  57. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    Well we have again come full circle! You, like your Swedenborg are most certainly gnostic. And I am something of an historic Anglican…Catholic & Reformed, with a certain affinity for some aspects also to historic Orthodoxy: their great dogmatic work of that portion of the creed of Christendom which concerns theology proper – the doctrines of the essential nature of the Godhead and the doctrine of the Godhead in relation with manhood in the incarnation. – see the Ecumenical Councils of Nicaea I and Chalcedon. These labels are important especially now in a post-modern age like ours.

    People on this blog need to see that your so-called theology is certainly “Gnostic”! This is the hermeneutic and so-called interpretive. Mine is Judeo-Christian and toward the salvation-history. These are well known theological models, etc. And yes indeed my theology is centered in real life – for the Christian, the Cross of Christ is a spirituality of redemptive suffering! (2 Cor.4:7;10-11)

    And real love is as Evelyn Underhill wrote: “Love is a grave and ruthless passion, unlimited in selfgiving and unlimited in demand” !

    Very Sincerely In Christ,
    the Rev. Dr. Fr. Robert

  58. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    You talk of coming “full circle” as if it were a bad thing. You forget that you participated in a forum which allowed both of us to share and defend our theological viewpoints with interested readers.

    That is a good thing!

    If your statement that we have come full circle implies a certain frustration on your part that I have not embraced your theology, well, I do not share that same frustration on my end. You have contributed honorably and sincerely to this blog. And I am eternally grateful to you for that!

    God’s kingdom is a kingdom of mutual love.

    Spiritually yours,

  59. irishanglican says:

    In the history of the very important Christological controversies, the Nicaeans were victorious at the Council of Constantinople in 381 thanks in part to the backing of the Emperor Theodosius I and again in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon.

    Also like the Nicaeans, the Cappadocians believed that God the Father and God the Son were of identical substance, but they also emphasized that the Father and Son were distinct, though equally divine.

    The Cappadocians and Nicaeans joined forces in 381 to ensure the triumph of orthodoxy.

    Finally, the Orthodox Church is an elegant tapestry of enduring theology, culture and tradition and is expereincing a worldwide rebirth and renewal!

    Fr. Robert

    “A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices.” – William James

  60. irishanglican says:

    Ed, our last posts crossed.

  61. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    I am surely frustrated with a postmodern culture that rejects the historical Judeo-Christian faith and allows positions that are Non Sequitier – An argument in which the conclusion does not follow from the proper premises. This is the religious essence of our time! I am hardly surprised at your gnostic views, in our new age culture, etc.

    This is not a personal but religious and theological difference, but nonetheless it is profound today in a society that has lost its Judeo-Christian world view! And it is my position and statement that Gnosticism cannot be Chrisianized, as you seek to do.

    Orthodox Christianity will always be the face of ancient Christianity to the modern world. But as we who are Catholic and Orthodox know that the true Church and faith will always live in a foreign land! (1 Peter 1:1 ; 2:11 / 2 Peter 2:1-3)

    Fr. Robert

  62. irishanglican says:

    The Cross and Death of Christ met the Justice of God! You talk of the Commandments of God, but only “In Chirst” has and can this be met! This is the Gospel of St. Paul in the Book of Romans…see chapter’s three (3) thru five (5).

    “Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For “no human being will be justified in His sight” by deeds prescribed by the law. for through the law comes the knowdege of sin.
    But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets (OT), the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in CHRIST JESUS.” (Rom. 3:19-24) * Note, St. Paul’s inversion of the name: Christ Jesus verses Jesus Christ! The glorified God-Man above…in heaven on the Throne Of God! (See, Heb. 9:24)

    Fr. Robert

  63. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    You are not paying attention! Nowhere have I made the claim that a person is not to approach the Lord, whether it be for following the commandments or asking for divine help in one’s salvation.

    “Belief” in Christ is not religion. It is walking with God – by doing God’s Will!

    Do we take up the cross simply by believing or by DOING?

    Why would Jehovah God have given the commandments to the Jews if these requirements could only be met through “Christ?” The reason is that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. There is only ONE Savior!

    “And all flesh shall know that I Jehovah am thy Savior.” (Isaiah, 49:26)

    Or do you accuse a perfect God of being inefficient with a whole race of people? True faith should not squash reason!

    And, if you insist on chopping up God into three Persons then your version of Christianity can only be a 1/3 religion.

    Spiritually yours,

  64. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    I must apologize for not approving several of your latest responses to this blog.

    I do not want the topic of this current discussion to focus around whether or not God has picked you out to reveal more “correct” ideas about theology. To be fair to you, I will share with my readers the fact that you do not accept Swedenborg’s description of heaven. That’s fine with me.

    However, I would prefer that you tell us what you have SPECIFICALLY learned about what it is like in heaven, or hell for that matter. What kind of trees grow in heaven? Does heaven have mountains, valleys, rivers, oceans, and cities? If yes, what substances are these things made of?

    They cannot be made of physical things, nor would they exist in time and space. So how is distance or nearness felt among heaven’s inhabitants in the absence of physical spaces and physical times?

    I would welcome any new information about Heaven’s dynamics and its topological features that you can provide my readers. I want them to judge your ideas based on the power of the ideas – not on your special claim of authority.

    Spiritually yours,

  65. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    My point is that God could and cannot be approached, save only as the demands of HIS own holy law are met. And as the Judeo text says: “For I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God” ! (Ex. 20:5) Thus only Christ is both the One Savior and One Mediator. And where and what is the ONE Mediator and work of Christ for your gnostic faith? Without Christ’s mediation there is simply no salvation! In Pauline and Johannine theology it is called ‘Christ’s Session’ above, or on the throne of God. This is the great truth of the Book of Hebrews!

    The biblical idea of “belief” is both creedal and theological. God wants both our heart and mind! Before we can properly serve our God, we must “know” our God! This is the essence of God’s revelation as triune – “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, BE WITH YOU ALL.” (2 Cor. 13:14)

    And of course we take up ‘the cross of Christ’ both in believing and doing! They come together always! Your idea again to dichotomize this shows your gnostic tendency.

    Gnosticism pretends to give knowledge of God thru religious syncratism, or the fusion of so many different ideas. It again seems intellectual and advanced, but it is really just a “gnosis” of philosophical speculation. And true Christianity is incarnational in Christ, and simply but fully maintains the redemptive life-death that Christ alone gives in His Catholic and Orthodox Church. This is Textual…the Word of God, in both the Logos made flesh, and in the “rhema”, (Gk.) speech and narration of God’s word! It is “sacramental” and real in both the life of the church, and the individual. But also always part of the Mystical Body of Christ!

    Also one of the great weaknesses and errors of Gnosticism, is its idea and lack of evil in both understanding and reality, thus i.e. “sin”! And also the lack of the understanding of God in the contrast of God’s justice and love, as seen in the reality of God’s wrath, which can only be met and understood in the face and reality of Christ’s vicarious Atonement. Indeed the real loss in the Gnostic faith (so-called) is both the loss of the true doctrine of God – triune -, and the loss of the “sacrifical” nature of both the incarnation and the real death of Christ!

    Fr. Robert

  66. irishanglican says:

    If there are any other evangelical, Catholic (Roman, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) or even Eastren Orthodox Christians reading this blog? Please jump in! Am I the only one? And what say you “thegodguys” blog people?

    Father Robert (Irish Anglican)

  67. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr, Robert,

    Again you haven’t payed full attention. My faith-system attacks evil and sin head on. You did not respond to my statement about the Jews having the Commandments. There is no indication in Scripture that Jehovah shortchanged the Jews in terms of salvation.

    If there are three Gods, then, the “Son” and “Holy Spirit” just stood by for thousands of years and watched the world deteriorate until they were finally (and belatedly) sent into action by the Father. What did they do, polish the heavenly throne all that time?

    Your idea of salvation by means of three different Gods is the following: The Father gets pissed off at the human race. He then sends His son as a ransom to die on the cross. Jesus is resurrected in righteousness. The Father next imputes the righteousness of His Son and sends the Holy Spirit (because of this magical imputation) to set into motion the actual operation of justification, that is, the remission of sins, regeneration, rebirth, renewal, and salvation.

    Thanks to Christ’s vicarious atonement, the Father can impute righteousness upon an unsuspecting population. Christians have it made in the shade! We are all made guiltless behind our backs! This is a mystery to be grateful for!

    Your Christianity is perfectly suited for a post-modern world that is too busy to worry about sin – they simply put their faith in Christ’s vicarious atonement and presto, you’ve ducked the bullet of damnation!

    When I get old and lazy I may move over to your position. So you still have reason to be hopeful!

    Spiritually yours,

  68. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    You have never even sought to try and exegete a verse, nor make a statement in exegesis toward any of my said verses. And now you are resorting to both a bit of ad hoc…without general application, and some ad hominem.

    As I said also, you are simply creating a straw-man argument, not to mention a caricature as to the Blessed Trinity. Your ignorance to the Trinity of God, and really all orthodox Christian doctrine is profound! Since I have brought your gnostic doctrine to light, you are unable to really dialogue. Just make noise! I think we are done sir.

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  69. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Thank you for your valuable contributions! While you haven’t changed my position you may well have succeeded in changing the positions of some of my readers.

    I would never get in the way of that. We have covered lots of theology and given readers plenty to think about. I am not interested in winning a conversation but in creating conversation. You are a good man.

    Spiritually yours,

  70. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    I too could care less about winning…winning what, a conversation? Hardly, I am a priest and pastor in the desire to help human souls find the salvation of God in Christ! This is my only effort and spiritual desire! And there are none “good” save God! All men are sinners in need of the only Savior Jesus Christ! (I seek to keep 1 Tim. 4:15-16 before me always!)

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  71. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Winning a conversation can equate to getting someone to convert and perhaps saving a soul. So there are real stakes involved.

    I feel as strongly about my faith as you do with yours. We both believe that “all men are sinners in need of the only Jesus Christ.” We both approach the Lord for salvation.

    However, my faith tradition simply requires taking an extra step – taking “inventory” of our lives. I do not see this additional step as interfering with the Lord’s operation of salvation but rather as fully supporting the Lord.

    When the Lord was in the world He most definitely underscored the importance of this step of taking inventory when addressing who should “throw the first stone” or finding the “log that is in one’s own eye,” or “cleaning the inside of the cup.”

    The Lord said these things in order to help human souls. No council of men will convince me to refrain from taking this extra step.

    Spiritually yours,

  72. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    You and I have a very different belief here. Salvation is of the Lord, not men or man. Sruely God calls and enables the man, or person, but the whole spiritual work is from and in the Spirit of God. I am one that believes in the sovereignty of God in the salvation of any human soul. I could quote text after text here, both Old and NT. Indeed even Repentance is a gift of God!

    Since you are gnostic, you are most likely pelagian as your theology seems to declare.

    Fr. Robert

  73. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Good grief! Labels, labels, and more labels!

    Is your incessant name-calling a gift from God as well?

    We agree that salvation is of the Lord, but men and women
    must respond in a corresponding way.

    Spiritually yours,

  74. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    Theology is the “study” of God. We simply must use the labels that we find at hand and in use. I am surprised somewhat sense you claim to be a theologian?

    I am not name-calling, but simply seeking to define your theology. I can see that your training was hardly historical. And this is not ad hom, but a point to your own words in our many discussions. Again, your own words manifest surely a gnostic type of theology. You forget that I taught theology in Jerusalem for several years.

    As to “salvation”, again we must ask what is salvation? Salvation is very different for a gnostic and a neo-Calvinist, or Barthian. Though one of my favorite mentors is the great Scottish theologian P.T. Forsyth! And one of my older is the great as well, Tertullian. And yes Augustine always!

    So always labels in true Theology…a must!

    Fr. Robert

  75. irishanglican says:


  76. irishanglican says:

    PS..Also, you have but one man, your “Swedenborg”. I have the the whole Church Catholic! This is the real truth and reality of the Mystical Body of Christ…past and present!

  77. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    First you label me then you attack my credentials. I have never challenged your credentials (in fact, I have praised them) only your ideas. That is what this blog is all about. A forum for debate.

    I have already written a book on theology and will soon have published one more. In fact, my next book will be an attempt to unify science with theology. I suspect you would not be able to follow me into this growing area of academic interest.

    I seek explanation by way of mechanism rather than by mystery.

    You can certainly embrace your history. I will embrace the future – a future in which the Lord promises to make all things “anew.” The Second Coming is not a physical event but a paradigm shift in theology.

    Your tradition has moved away from “loving God and neighbor” to a mind-numbing explanation of how God can be three Persons but remain one God, and, how they act as a “tag team” in our salvation. The world wants a theology that makes more sense – not one that is hostage to history.

    So lets keep our debate focused on ideas, not on tradition.

    Spiritually yours,

  78. Mel Steffir says:

    God is an Atheist. He doesn’t believe in what people are saying in the Church. God is going to tear down the Church and rebuild it in his own words. “God has returned”.

    Heaven: Go outside and look around, all the way around. When you die, that doesn’t change that much. God states that he has “Land” in heaven.
    Hell: this is a place where you are trapped. It could be different for each person.
    Death: Everything disappears. The Eternal Nothing. No death by fire, it is quick and painless. God does not want to torture these people. He doesn’t want them in Heaven either. That also means Heaven doesn’t have different levels or classes.

  79. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    As I wrote, my purpose was not at all a personal attack. You must tough-up if you are going to be a debater (which I am not really). The Scripture only asks the pastor-teacher to be able to defend the faith, but only to a degree. But, we are certainly not on the same page on anything historical, or thelogical!

    Yours attacks on the doctrine and theology of the Trinity of God are as I have stated over and over mere caricature. And as our Lord said, “Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine..etc.” (Matt.7:6) This hyperbolic statement has much truth to it, so I have not sought to really share my spiritual intimacy here about the Trinity. You have made up your mind against it, if it ever would change you must first begin to think differently, and seek more of the mystery of God. And of course this would include the gift of God’s repentance!You will never come to, or figure out God on your own steam! This is mere gnostic as I have stated.

    Your statements about science, physics etc. really have nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian Biblical Text. The Scripture does not use that approach. The Scripture teaches us how to go to heaven, and not how the heavens go! This is my view and position really. Of course the Scripture is not against that, but that is not its intent is my belief.

    Again, as to “tradition” for the Catholic and Orthodox Christian tradition is always a living thing and reality…Acts 2:42 / 2 Thes. 3:6.

    The real and final Second Coming of Christ will indeed change and end the world as we know it, this is both theological and eschatological. (Matt. 24:29-0-31)

    Finally, the only approach to the Judeo-Christian God is one of “mystery”! There are no certain “mechanisms” to the knowledge of God. We can only come to God on His terms, in ‘faith, hope & love’! But we can be sure that our God has entered history thru “the blood of an eternal covenant, our Lord Jesus.” (Heb. 13:20) He is both God & Man, and THE “Incarnation” Itself…”the only begotten from the Father”! (St. John 1:14)

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  80. irishanglican says:


  81. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    Again, my points are to your theological method, and not an attack. I am just baffled somewhat at your quite overt gnosticism! And your apparent lack of knowledge in the reality of historic Christian positions. Though I don’t accept Swedenborg’s positions, I think I at least undestand what he is saying.

    Fr. Robert

  82. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Now you are accusing me of weakness – for BOLDLY challenging your ideas and tradition.

    I don’t remember backing down. In fact, I don’t remember even complaining. I was just following your wise advice of defining the “other guy” (labels).

    That aside, I need to point out that there is more to this blog than keeping the discussion interesting. I need to actively manage it. In other words, it is my responsibility that the discussion does not run too far away from the original post and spin out of control.

    The post for this discussion started on the premise that angels interpret Scripture differently than terrestrial humans. I used the seven-day creation story as an example of how angels would distill higher, spiritual meaning from the literal sense of its words.

    If I am wrong, then the burden of proof lies with you. Instead, you enter into the conversation, throw some of your own biblical passages at me and demand that I appease YOU!

    Your methodology in this theological debate has always been to play by YOUR rules – even on my own blog.

    The “science of correspondences” is a mechanism and tool for understanding God better. You know nothing about this topic and you could not comment on it. I have addressed correspondences in other posts on this blog.

    Again, I know your historic Christian position better than you know Swedenborg. I do not want to bore my readers with history or tie their minds into knots with hypostatic nonsense. I am sharing NEW ideas. Period!

    You don’t go to heaven. Heaven is something you become. Heaven is within us. When we die we find our true inner reality. The purpose of religion is to change our inner reality – by following God’s commandments. THOSE ARE GODS TERMS!

    Before you challenge me on that I would like you to address my original post concerning angelic exegesis of the creation story.

    Spiritually yours,

  83. Mel Steffir says:

    To Irishangelican,

    I went back and read what The GodGuy wrote about Angels and Gods Word. I did’t find anything wrong with it. It could very well be like he says. God did not say otherwise. It gave me a feeling of well being. I liked the humaness. Good things come from Animals, Man, Woman, Humans and Love. We are all entitled to share our thoughts on what we think God and Heaven are like. God been very secretive on these subjects. God rarely says anthing to us. He keeps us wondering. He allows us to wonder.

    Take heed and make note, God has returned

  84. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward, (And by the way, I gave this name to you out of some aspect of respect..though certainly I am an Irishman in England)

    I think I already stated this Gnostic position to you. If you will look at Gnosticism historically, you will find these ideas of angels as both mediators and revelators. This is a fusion of Babylonian and Persian beliefs, before they are Jewish. And another characteristic of Gnosticism is that of the Primal Man, the man who existed before the world. We also can see this in the Gnostic Sophia (Wisdom). And a parallel myth to that of the Primal Man are the accounts to be found in most of Gnostic systems of the creation of the first man. Here we see also many different ideas about Angels therein. The list is endless. This is as I said a profound syncratism!

    Sorry but I am not at all convinced that you know my historic Christian positions! I am still learning much of the Eastern, and now even more widely growing Orthodox Church and Christian theology and culture. But even my own Anglican position is far too classic Evangelical and Augustinian for your understanding – and this is quite evident to my mind!

    As to the Judeo-Christian methodology, this is really quite simple: Salvation History! (Gen. 3:15)

    As you pontificate and officiate: “I am sharing NEW ideas. Period!” I hope your readers can see your very plain Gnosticism! This is my main reason to make this long trip and ride. To show that this is your main theology and manner…Gnostic theology (so-called).

    Also as to your pride in your scientism, this can also be a form of Gnosticism. But this is sadly most often just another form of modern science fiction. Talk about “nonsense”! And I don’t say this to be mean at all, but it is just not biblical truth and real theology! Well these are of course my opinions, but I stand in something of the center of the history of the Judeo-Christian beliefs here.

    Finally, your whole “Salvation” language and concepts are Gnostic! Salvation is a gift from the grace and person of God Almighty, HE alone is the sovereign of the universe! HE alone is God and sits Immutable outside of time and yet is also in time: Transcendent and Immanent! And yet, once in time..and now forever HE became incarnate…the eternal Son of God: “For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true (a real heaven); but into HEAVEN ITSELF, now to appear before the face of God for us!” (Hebrews 9:24)

    But again, this is all based upon that ONE/ONCE Death of Jesus Christ upon Calvary’s Cross for sin and sinners! Amen. “Who HIS own self bare our sins in HIS BODY upon the tree (cross), that we having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes (bruise, Gk.) you were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    If the Cross and Death of Christ is anything to the mind, it is surely everything – the most profound reality and sublimest mystery. And the Cross and Death of Christ is the pivot as well as the center of NT thought, theology and reality! And always it is the person of Christ Jesus: the value and perfection of the One Death on that Cross!
    The Cross interprets sin and righteousness and love. It is the power of God and the wisdom of God! (See, 1 Cor.1:18-25)

    “There was a knight of Bethlehem,
    His wealth was tears and sorrow;
    His men-at-arms were little lambs;
    His castle was a wooden cross
    On which He hung on hung on high;
    His helmet was crown of throns
    Whose crest did touch the sky.”

    Fr. Robert

  85. irishanglican says:


  86. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I like flowery words and poetry. But poetry is no substitute for intellectual impotency.

    You have evaded the issue of God’s commandments and my discussion that the Holy Word contains deeper meaning within the literal sense of its narratives.

    Whereas you ascribe God’s perfection in the historical accuracy of the biblical stories Swedenborg attributes God’s perfection in the perpetual efficiency of His saving message. Infinite perfection demands perfect efficiency. Scripture would be quite inefficient if the “real meat” behind salvation isn’t addressed until we get to the part about the Cross. The importance of this event would then render everything else in the Holy Word as superfluous to our real needs and mere historical “fluff.”

    However, as I showed back at the beginning of this post, when higher meanings are distilled out from the seven-day creation story (as angels do), then every part of the account directly addresses SALVATION – from the very get-go! Without knowledge of these higher meanings, which are correspondences, we cannot appreciate God’s ONGOING and real infinite efficiency in matters of salvation.

    Why would God waste a single word on matters that did not directly address salvation? You do not have any rational insight to the nature of God’s perfection which is to be found in every iota of every word in the Holy Word!

    Also, when you chop God up into three “Persons” you also bring inefficiencies into the dynamics of salvation and force the brain to retreat into the abyss of mystery.

    But thanks for the poetry anyway.

    Spiritually yours,

  87. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    Now you are sounding like a broken record. As you say we have already agreed that the Scripture has levels of meaning at times. But the method of this exegesis is certainly not angels (see Heb. 1:1-5). but the incarnate Son of God! This is also centered in the Salvation-History of God: “Now may the God of peace, who brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, make you complete.., etc.” (Heb. 13:20-21)

    I have evaded nothing but ignorant questions that lead to no where! (See and read carefully 1 Tim. 1:3-11). And certainly the “real meat” of the Scripture is not some far out Swedenborg Gnosticism. Note, the Hebrew writer says that they (the Hebrew Christians) needed “someone to teach you AGAIN the basic elements of the oracles of God.” (Heb.5:12) And as Hebrews 6:1-2 really shows before there can be any “maturity” there must be “foundational” teaching. And without this there can be the constant problem of apostasy!

    Sorry Edward, but your Swedenborg gnostic theology comes up short here!

    I will take the “mystery/mysteries” of God! “Let a man so account of us, as ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Here, moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.” (1 Cor. 4:1-2) And this is what I have been seeking! You?

    “Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.” (1 Tim. 3:9)

    See also, Rom. 16:25-27

    If there has been any evasion, it has been you to the authority and text of the Word of God!

    “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:2) Here is a profound Trinitarian verse and statement in the Word of God! Note each “person” of the Trinity has HIS work in the salvation-history of God!

    Finally, see 2 Cor. 4:6 as to the spiritual sense of looking back at the creation of God: “Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” This is also the salvation-history of every believer…Christian!

    Only over that awful bridge of Christ’s death nothing but the naked personality can pass. But this is always “death” to self! Again, the salvation-history of each real Christian is the Cross and Death of Christ. Only here!

    Fr. Robert – Col.3:16…my spiritual hymn and song: Christ & His Word!

  88. irishanglican says:

    Earth is the chosen battleground, from all eternity, for the final conflict between the powers of light and darkness, good and evil, but it’s consummation is the salvation-history of the Death, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus!

    “It is finished.” “Then HE bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” (St. John 19:30)

    The fellowship of His suffering is the real apostolic succesion. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church in very land and age. “Henceforth,” said St. Paul, “let no man trouble me. I bear in my body the brand-marks, the scars, of the Lord Jesus.” (See, Gal. 6:17) But now at least we can “suffer” in a culture that has always rejected the true reality of the Cross and Death of Christ. This will be real, theological and spiritual, if we hold the salvation-history of Calvary & Christ!

    Fr. Robert

  89. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Scripture is adapted to the reception of its readers – from men and women of various cognitive levels to the angels of the highest heaven. That is why the Holy Word is a multi-dimensional document. The truth of God’s Word is inexhaustible and Infinite. Only Infinite Truth could have existed as the Word before the creation of the universe.

    The battle of Armageddon takes place in our hearts and minds. Where else is evil combated and beaten? Evil is not removed by PHYSICAL or military force, it is removed through repentance and following God’s Commandments.

    In Revelation (13:7) John states that the battleground is in heaven – so you don’t even have a correct literal interpretation of things, let alone a higher, spiritual interpretation!

    Why the heck would John be talked into EATING a book (10:9)? This only makes sense from a psycho-spiritual interpretation. Books contain knowledge – therefore eating a book represents the metabolizing and mental digestion of God’s truth – which is sweet at first but later turns bitter when we realize that these deeper things contain some hard lessons for us.

    Your literal interpretation derives nothing profound from stories that sound absolutely absurd at face value.

    But since you have complained that I am sounding like a broken record I feel compelled to cater to your needs as my guest on this blog. So in order to be a better Christian host I would like to direct you to a new post entitled, “Salvation Gobbledygook” and take your tradition head on.

    This is where you feel your theological strength resides. And, I am here to serve the special needs of my valuable guests.

    Spiritually yours,

  90. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    I appreciate that this is your blog and you are the host. So far however I have not seen any other people that follow Swedenborg on this blog?

    One of the problems that you do not address, or redress, any of the theological statements on their own terms. As mentioned you only make mere caricatures, and then think you have said something against them. And this proves nothing really.

    Also you keep acting as if my historical approach cannot advance spiritual interpretation and application. And this is simply not true. This you keep stating, but again have proven nothing! I have on the other hand stated that your method, words and approach are Gnostic. And you have not disagreed, etc.

    And again you attack my historical, grammatical hermenutic. But have nothing to replace it with other than mere gnostic and supposed higher life ideas. Some of it has some truth, but not within the historical Judeo-Christian text. And as to the Death of Christ, I think I have proven from – the text itself – that the NT teaches the vicarious and substitutionary nature in the Atonement of Christ!

    But I will read your “Salvation Gobbledygook.” But even the title proves that you are again making mere caricature. For a science guy, you do not seem to understand or use the scientific method? I am the one at least seeking something here with the historical!

    Fr. Robert

  91. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Why should another Swedenborgian jump into the fray? If I needed their help I would have not started this blog alone. I do not need anyone’s help. Why would you think that greater numbers have any meaning? I am quite willing to succeed or fail based on the strength of my ideas – not on the numbers of additional Swedenborgians to tip the scales.

    I thought you wanted me to toughen-up and take it like a man?

    As to our debate, every one loves their own proofs.

    Again, I just hope my readers are getting a good look at both of our views. They will determine who is proving their case the best.

    Swedenborg was a scientist. The effectiveness of a scientific model is based on its EXPLANATORY and PREDICTIVE powers. He applies his theory of higher meanings to the ENTIRE books of Genesis, Exodus, Revelation (20 volumes of work), and includes the spiritual interpretations of NT quotes throughout his various other theological works.

    So, he offers us a lot of explanatory power. In terms of its predictive powers, his methodology tells us that whatever Scriptural passage we focus on, a higher, spiritual meaning can be derived which will correspond perfectly with the physical/literal interpretation. Nothing is ambiguous or arbitrary.

    Swedenborg left us with a systematic theology – not some incomplete hodgepodge of incoherent visions. You are not well acquainted with the scope of his work. I however, having come out of seminary school, am acquainted with your historical viewpoint and tradition.

    Spiritually yours,

  92. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    My point was to “your readers”! I think you and I are really the only ones invloved strictly on this issue. I will write again.

    Fr. Robert

  93. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    You are wrong I have read some of Swedeborg works…Heavenly Secrets (in parts), and part of his, The True Christian Religion. But I am sure almost you have read very little on the Eastern Orthodox writers on the Trinity of God! If you had…there would be some humility on your part on this subject, etc. But maybe your “seer” Swedenborg has taken over your complete theological thought? If so this is surely very sad, and only the path of error!

    Myself, I would place Swedenborg within a kind of Gnostic Scientism. He uses ideas that are his own, as vision and scientia philosophy, but always within his own emotive meaning. It is not really science at all. But again just another form of Gnosticism. Again, in my opinion, the only interesting aspect to this thought is his envisage of a spiritual world in which the living and the dead constitute one single being…here perhaps we can see something of the Mystical Body of Christ? But it is never involved in necromancy!

    Fr. Robert

  94. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I do not think the Prophets were involved with necromancy. Nor was Swedenborg’s spiritual exegesis constrained to his own emotive meaning. Again, his exploration of higher meaning in the Holy Word did not lead to arbitrary results. If “water” has a higher, spiritual meaning in one biblical story then it must retain that SAME higher meaning when used throughout Scripture. This rules out guessing, subjectivity or dumb luck.

    Swedenborg did not simply envision a spiritual world. He explored it like a scientist. He studied its topological features, interviewed spirits, angels, and even met up with an ancient race of humans whose morphology fits the description of the Neanderthals (before any fossils had been found)!

    In terms of humility, I save it for the Lord God. Humility can be easily feigned and used to trick others into thinking you are something other then what you are.

    Do not let my “apparent” lack of humility blind you to the fact that I have allowed you unrestricted access to openly challenge ALL my opinions. I suspect that I would be shut out of many Christian blogs.

    Spiritually yours,

  95. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    By the way, you have admitted to my readers that some parts of Scripture do contain symbolic language. For instance, the scenario in Revelation involving a seven-headed dragon who is threatening a pregnant women trying to give birth on the moon has been deemed “obviously symbolic” in your opinion.

    I applaud you!

    However, If this symbolism falls within authentic doctrine, then where can my readers go to get further explanation on these important topics? The fact that Swedenborg provides further explanation is not something that should be quickly dismissed.

    And, if you are intent on dismissing him, you are left with the impotency of your own faith system to adequately address these authentic messages from the Lord God.

    Spiritually yours,

  96. irishanglican says:

    Hello Sir Edward,

    First, I thank you for your openness on “your” blog. Fair point, many Christian blogs are not really open at all. Too often the blog is just a place to mount a pulpit, which many do not have, or are even called to. But this is another question.

    The Hebrew Prophets did not engage in necromancy, as per their law. Nor can the Christian Church. And even the Apostle Paul did not reveal all of the things given to him. See, 2 Cor. 12:4…”unspeakable” (arretos, Gk.) only here. The Greek word means what cannot be specified or enunciated in express words, i.e. it is used for unspoken, or wrong to be spoken..i.e. secret words and things. And to hear what is said by Swedenborg, etc., is well beyond this! It simply cannot to allowed! In the name or science, revelation or theology!

    As to the Book of Revelation, it has it’s own literary form: Acokalypsis, meaning “revelation” or “disclosure.” The Book of Revelation is apocalypic literature, like parts of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah, it contains many symbolic elements. Using visual imagery as well as verbal promises and warnings, it weaves together into a poetic tapestry the themes of the whole of Scripture. “Its depths are displayed through its multiple allusions.” Yet as a revelation, it is intended to nourish all who are servants of Christ (1:1).

    Finally, the impotency is seeking to find aspects and so-called speech and revelation, that is simply not there in Scripture! We must let the Text speak for itself. It does this thru the textual, and proper theology and in the interpretive model of the living Church and it’s living tradition! (Acts 2:42 / 2 Thes. 2:15; 3:6) This long history of the interpretive model of the Church is seen from St. Paul, St. John, etc., to the Early Father’s. And Origen, Tertullian, to our modern theologians…Barth, Von Balthasar, etc. And of course the many great Eastern Orthodox “theologians”! The Churches list is almost endless! And this surely includes the Ecumenical Councils, at least the first seven for the Anglican and Orthodox Churches!

    Fr. Robert

  97. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    I have wanted to express how much I have enjoyed the Lutheran theology from the Swedish and Uppsala theologians…Yngve Brilioth, formerly Archbishop of Uppsala, to Nathan Soderblom. To name the best. But there are also the Finnish Lutherans, many good theolog’s, etc. I say this as I know Swedenborg was Swedish and formerly Lutheran. And Emanuel was educated at Uppsala.

    I have myself read some parts of Swedenborg’s early work on the soul and the body (in science). Here is where he saw the problem and danger of trusting his own observations. But this went by the wayside later sadly! The problem is surely his later idea (in his own vision), that this new revelation was what is meant by the second advent. Here is where he becomes more of the gnostic by theological definition at least.

    Though he did reject the Trinity of God, he did see since ‘God is the Divine Man’, there is in HIM, as in every person, ‘a trinity of love, wisdom and activity.’

    But for Swedenborg salvation does depend on acceptance of and response to divine truth. But in this “the planes” this is certainly Gnostic rather than Christian truth and redemption. And as you use and say “correspondance” is another word and term which is again gnostic.

    Indeed, the more I read..the more I am convinced that he is a Gnostic so-called Christian!

    Fr. Robert

  98. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    Huh? What can not be allowed??????

    God did not give humankind such an ample brain only to shut it down.

    When one eats a meal the body’s digestive system must break it down in order to get to the essential nutrients. This is what the mind must do to be nourished by symbolic elements.

    Swedenborg’s exegesis involves a process of psycho-spiritual digestion. Scripture can nourish us on ever deeper levels – which is in accordance with God’s Infinite Wisdom.

    The Second Coming brings new nourishment with it – not physical bloodshed.

    Christ does not ask us to be his servants – he Himself states that we must do the Father’s Will. Here is where the problem of illogicality surfaces when you divide God up into three Persons. The operation of redemption requires the participation of every “God.” Even though the Son acquires righteousness on the cross, it is the Father who imputes the righteousness of the Son, and sends the Holy Spirit to work out its effects (salvation).

    Christ’s vicarious atonement is meaningless without the action of the Father and the Holy spirit. So why do you simply focus your faith on the cross?

    Focusing on the cross takes one’s focus off the commandments of “Loving God and neighbor.” It separates faith from Christian love. Even Pauline doctrine, which you often quote, puts love above faith and hope.

    Spiritually yours,

    Spiritually yours,

  99. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    Wow you are so into Swedenborg! I just cannot see the draw? Just admit one thing to me and I will be happy…You and Swendenborg are Gnostics!

    Your religious “evolution” would be interesting! Have you always been drawn into this kind of deeper life? And do you consider yourself as a “convert” to Christianity? And have you been redeemed from sin in your life? And what is “sin” to you?

    I have never heard you talk about “Faith”! Does faith exist for you and Swedenborg? I mean in the biblical sense of Heb. 11:1.

    Again, your gnostic difference between being God’s servants verses doing His will is an unreality. We are of course both “In Christ.”

    The focus of Christ’s vicarious Atonement is of course Christ, but Christ in His obedience to the Father’s love, will and revelation. This is also the work of the Holy Spirit! The “person” of love between the Father and the Son, as Augustine would say.
    But the redemptive plan is also seen in Hebrews 9:14, “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Here again is the Trinity of God, not apart but each working together in their certain work and economy of God!

    I am baffled how you can deny Christ and His vicarious nature in the Atonement? I keep pulling up scripture after scripture that shows this nature and work. And you have said not one word straight up to any Text!?

    Fr. Robert

  100. Mel Steffor says:

    I want you to know I have not left the discussion here. I visit a number of other sites besides here. Some have questions, comments or insults that I respond to. I try to hold my tongue on the insults. Or as Jesus would say turn the other cheek, while I am holding my tongue.

    I do agree with God Guy, that Irish Angelican focus’ his faith on the Cross. A constant repeating of how sins are redemned in the sacrifice on the TREE. Why is there so much focus on the death of Christ?

    Irish Angelican,
    I would also like to hear the science behind how that works. How does Christ’ suffering on the Tree redeem the rest of us from sin. Why does God need a blood sacrifce from one of us to forgive the many? Isn’t that just another Sin, murder by torture. That is as bad as you can get as far as sins go. Wouldn’t that Hurt God? I would think he would be more hurt than forgiving.

    I would also like to remind you of Pagan history. It wasn’t just the Romans. Stonehenge is another example where Humans were sacrificed to the Sun and Moon Gods. In turn the many were granted a good Harvest from the Pagan Gods. One human dies for the good of the many. The same Pagan concept here is used in the bible. Remember the Romans were Pagans before they were Christains. Jesus is served up just like a Lamb on the Altar. Human sacrifice. Again One Human dies so the many may benefit.

    Christ died for your sins. Doesn’t that sound Pagan to you?

    I don’t want you to feel bad. Most people have not drawn this connection. I have only found one other person that has caught this. I used to think as you did. I was told Jesus died for our sins. If God hadn’t pointed pointed out Blood Meal and Stonehenge to me. I wouldn’t have gotten it either.

    Irish Angelican,
    You keep calling God Guy gnostic like it is a bad name. You could very well be called a Pagan for your beliefs. But I would not call you such a backward term as this, out of respect for your position as a Priest. I once believed as you do. God told me otherwise.

    Respectfully Yours, Mel Steffor

  101. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    In Swedenborg’s theology “Faith” is the knowledge (not simply belief) of God’s doctrine of LOVE. In fact, Christian love is faith PUT INTO ACTION.

    Show me where Christ Himself says the things you claim about redemption! As I have said before, how does the Lord remove sin from His death? The removal of sin is through the REJECTION of sin. But how can God reject sin when God has no sin? Through hocus-pocus?

    The one true God, by coming into the world, was able to take on sin through acquiring a body of human flesh. This is how God took on all humankind’s baggage. He overcame evil by rejecting all human propensity for evil and sin which the flesh is prone to excite. This rejection of evil culminated on the cross. The Lord gained full power over the hells from top to bottom and from bottom to the top.

    We are to approach the Lord to do the same for us. But the Lord doesn’t simply wipe the slate clean. We are each to look at the SPECIFIC things of our behavior that needs to be removed. The Lord cannot remove any sin which we continue commit (duh!). When we fight and reject sin in our outer actions, the Lord removes the inner compulsion of the spirit (the evil in the heart).

    I simply refuse to lower my guard and assume no responsibility for my life-choices and behavior. I wish to behave as a Christian and follow God’s Commandments, rather then put my faith in some mysterious process and hope that I become one of the elect.

    God punishes and judges no one. Those who turn away from God punish themselves. What is greater justice than that?

    I simply refuse to believe that God is not Infinite love and mercy. My faith believes that God never gives up loving anyone, regardless of their response.

    Spiritually yours,

  102. irishanglican says:

    Mell Steffor,

    Sir you would need to read both the Old Testament, which is the Judeo Scripture, and then the NT Scripture, which is the covenantal writings of the fulfillment of the OT Text. I am a historical Judeo-Christian. I would suggest a small primer on Biblical Theology also.

    The doctrine of the Christian Atonement is hardly pagan, as it is “sacrifical”! Which is simply the biblical and theological salvation-history of the Scripture Text. You must do some home-work here! It is also obvious that I am something our an evangelical. Hopefully this term will also make my positions better understood. Also you might want to read Gen. 22: 1-19 to better understand the Judeo-Christian position.

    And Stonehenge has some other ideas besides what you have stated. But nonetheless it IS certainly pagan itself, and has no Judeo-Christian connection.

    And one of my presuppositions is that God does not speak directly to anybody now. Thus our need to the historic Judeo-Christian Scripture!

    Also godguy knows very well what a gnostic is! His positions do reflect this. And for him I am sure it is not a negative.

    But thanks to jump in.

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  103. irishanglican says:

    Sir Ed,

    Since you are going to moderate my blogs statements now, this would be a good place for me to bow out.

    Thanks for the ride.

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  104. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert & Mel,

    Certainly, having more than one God is pagan.

    Interestingly, Swedenborg claimed that the idea of one God is older than the Hebrew tradition. Adam & Eve had no idea of three Gods. Even the Egyptians originally believed in one God rather than a plurality of Gods. Their hieroglyphics were based on correspondences, but when worship became more corporeal/sensual and external, they forgot the spiritual meaning of their symbols and began to worship each symbol of God as a distinct God.

    This cognitive deterioration has happened to Christian theology as well.

    Holy Scripture is written in the style of correspondences. The Second Coming involves a return of this sacred knowledge.

    Spiritually yours,

  105. Mel Steffor says:

    Now, God did not tell me why he came back to leave a new message, so I have to guess. Good Christians agrue amongst themselves. The Church is broken up. It is the great Schism. The pieces have fallen and are scattered on the ground. Here Irish Angelican claims to be Protestant. I just looked up the word evangelical. He is correct that I don’t know the bible anywhere as well as he does. I agree I lack biblical knowledge.

    That was my agruement with God. God why are you talking to me? I don’t go to Church and I don’t have my nose in the Bible. I said go talk to the Pope or at least someone in the Church. These people want to talk to you. I never said God please talk to me I want to know you better. I was minding my own business when in the night as I am sleeping God breaks into my house and get into my dreams. They were good dreams, so I didn’t hold it against him. But he still broke in and entered.

    God wants me to put the pieces back together. He wants the Church rebuild in his own words and not the words of man.

    God wants to rebuild the Church in his own words.

    Again I didn’t want to see Irish leave. I am not trying to take sides. Everyone is entitled to his own views. Opinions, you can take ownership and store it. It is yours. God has his own views and he has the final word on everything. Whether you disagree with him or not. God takes ownership and he keeps a record of yours too. You have storage in two different places. Your and his.

  106. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    I am in no position to judge whether or not God is talking directly to YOU. Why does God break into your house to get into your dreams? By “house,” do you mean your head?

    With that said, we are in agreement that the Lord God is rebuilding the church and making new ideas available to the world!

    Spiritually yours,

  107. irishanglican says:

    Mel Steffor

    I have decided to stick around for a bit. I was not upset, but only concerned if I was using my time well? This is always one of my concerns. I must choose often, where, what, and when to engage. I have growin to like our Sir Edward, godguy, etc. Though he is still a gnostic type of so-called Christian, to me at least. Again if you look at the gnostic history, and what he himself says, it is all there. And as I said, for godguy this is certainly not negative.

    I am myself an Anglican who claims both the Catholic and Reformed aspect. This is part of the history and heritage of the Anglican Church. The via-media, the Church of the middle way. Also I am something of an Anglo-Catholic, though closer to the Eastern Orthodox, than Roman. I was both raised Irish Roman Catholic, and have my first philosophy degree as a Roman Catholic Benedictine. But that was many years ago now. I say all this to show that my faith is not in the ivory tower! And I will always be the Royal Marine and officer. Yeah a bit of Irish pride! I have had my share of life experience. And always seek to continue!

    Each of us is on a journey, that is really what human life is. But how we choose to walk, and what we choose to put in our heads is all very real! And amen to fact that “God has his own views and he has the final word on everything.”! But how can we find Him, and know Him? This is a real question!

    Again, thanks from my vantage to come aboard!

    Fr. Robert

  108. Mel Steffor says:

    Hello Good Guy,
    When I say God broke into my house and got into my dreams. I am saying that he wasn’t invited. It was a surprise. He didn’t say why he was talking to me He didn’t answer any of my questions. God does not answer questions. I didn’t like that.
    Now, I am going to blogs on the Internet and unloading what God told me. He never asked me to tell everyone what he told me. He didn’t ask me to do anything. I don’t think the message was just for me. I am not the only person in this world. The rest of you get to hear it too. I just don’t want him to be disapointed with me. ON Judgment Day I don’t want him to say something like, “Well that wasn’t much of an effort getting my message out, Mel.”

    When I go to other sites, I also read what everyone has to say. Everyone has good points from the faithful to the unfaithful. I listen to why they don’t believe to why they do. They all have good arguements. The hard part is putting all the pieces together to bring them together. God does that with his messages.

    Rebuilding the Church starts with Gods message about First is Last and Last is First. I would like to find anyone who can find an arguement with that. That was his First message and his Biggest issue. We all have issues, this is Gods.

    God also made a comment about people asking for his forgiveness on their death bed. There must be a lot of that for God to make a comment about it. God said: “He is forgiving, yet waiting until the 11th hour is to late.” You have to ask sooner than that. He was very clear about the 11th being to late. Yet, God is forgiving.

  109. Mel Steffor says:

    To Fr. Robert,
    I am glad that you decided to stay. I think your wisdom and knowledge of Scripture adds substance to the discussion. I don’t think your wasting your time here.

  110. thegodguy says:

    I guess no one wants to talk about angels.

  111. irishanglican says:

    “Let love of the brethren continue. Do not neglect to show hositality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.” (Hebrews 13:1-2)

    Fr. R.

  112. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    Could you please specify which God broke into your house? Was it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit?

    Spiritually yours,

  113. Mel Steffor says:

    The First Dream is from the Father. The Second Dream is from the Son. The Last dream is from the Holy Ghost. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They all got into my dreams. One at a time. They planned this together. They conspired jointy to tell a story. This means that God confirms the Trinity.

  114. Mel Steffor says:

    The Dreams are all symbolic. God talks in symbols and feelings.

    1. The First Dream is From God. He talks about Judgement and Heaven in that order. Judgment comes before Heaven.
    2. The Second dream is From the Son, Christ. He talks about Life and the Objects in ours Lives.
    3. The Third dream is from the Holy Ghost. He talks about Resurrection and Death. Resurrection comes before Death.

    That is the order of the Dreams. The dreams also have a time of day and a season. The First dream is in the morning, it is early Spring. The second dream noon, it is still spring, not the first of spring. The last dream is late Summer, the end of Summer.

  115. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel & Fr. Robert,

    Thank God’s heavenly influence that I can offer you both hospitality via this blog. And I think we are indeed entertaining both terrestrial readers and angels!

    So I will let “love of the brethren continue” with this blog! In Swedenborg’s theology, it is better to be good than to be right. Our discussion is a GOOD thing.

    Spiritually yours,

  116. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    Yes! God talks in symbols and feelings (derivatives of love).

    Angels in heaven understand these symbols better than we do. If God talks in symbols then the Holy Word indeed contains a symbolic language. This is why the Lord ONLY spoke in parables – he was trying to condition humans to think more like angels.

    “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things that have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.” (Matt. 13:35)

    Swedenborg has brought this sacred language back into theology.

    Spiritually yours,

  117. irishanglican says:

    Again, I must take us back to the history of Gnosticism, the place of angels is very prominent in gnostic theology. But in the Christian covenant and fulfillment of the OT, Christ is the “person,” place and “the exact representation” of God’s nature. (See, Heb. 1:1-3). And also, “He made purification of sins” and has sat down “at the Majesty on high.”

    “Having become as much better than angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.” (Heb. 1:4…see the rest of the Chapter verses 5-14).

    Angels are not the prominence, but only Christ: The Son of God! HIMSELF, The Incarnation and also the “purification” of sin/sins! It is here that angels lead: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

    Fr. Robert

  118. irishanglican says:

    In reality there is very little “revelation” about angels in the NT! This verse from Hebrews 1:14 is perhaps one of the most profound. But, we must be satisfied with the biblical revelation we have, and not press into areas we are not given privy!

    Fr. Robert

  119. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    I am glad you are satisfied with your level of understanding of angels. Swedenborg brings so much more to the table – and his ideas make real rational sense for describing beings that live and function beyond spacetime.

    By the way, Swedenborg claimed that God did not create angels apart from the human race. They were all once terrestrial men and women – in other words, angels are the outcome of the continued evolution of the human heart.

    Angels look at natural things spiritually, not spiritual things naturally (which humans do who rely on a mere physical/literal interpretation of the Holy Word).

    People who read this blog want more information, not less. This includes learning the deeper truths of Scripture that eludes the eye. Swedenborg said that “sight through the eye closes the understanding, but sight through the understanding opens the eye.”

    Spiritually yours,

  120. irishanglican says:

    Sir Edward,

    Looks like an all-nighter for me!

    This is the difference between us, I seek to follow only the “revelation” of Holy Scripture…God’s Word! You seek to follow Swendenborg, “one” man! But really where is the historical Jesus, as well as the spiritual Christ in your mentor? I just don’t see much of “The Word made (become) flesh” (St. John) and the Risen Christ who died upon the Cross (St. Paul), in his writings and witness? And he was a man of his time. Simple as that!

    As to your/his view on angels, this is pure fantasy! You are a Gnostic soul for real! You are in love with the journey I think. And truth is only relative for you. (My opinions) One thing however, I have done my homework on Swedenborg, it has been interesting!

    Sincerely my blog friend,
    Fr. Robert

  121. Mel Steffor says:

    Angels. I to have a comment about Angels. Now you can correct me if I am wrong or right on my thoughts about Angels. Here is a list of my opinions on Angels.

    1. Angels are messengers of God.
    2. Angels are part of the Original Creation. That means they came into being the same time as God.
    3. Angels are representatives of God.
    4. Angels can appear in Human form.
    5. Angels speak for God.
    6. Angels stand up for and defend God.
    7. Possible brothers and sisters of God?

    IMO, I think the prophet Daniel could be an Angel. He came as representative of God.
    Now Daniel is also in the Last Dream about Resurrection and Death. Now Daniel was more than just Human. He holds a higher place than mere mortals. The next higher position would be an Angel. At the very begining of the Resurrection dream I am with David. David represents the House of David. Daniel walks up with a message from God.

    An Angel is one who is like God, he/she represents God. This is what Daniel did. Could Daniel be an Angel?

  122. Mel Steffor says:

    Now Daniel is also a symbol of someone that I know in real life. I recognized Daniel in the Dream. In real life Daniel and I are Equals. So to understand the dreams I read the book of Daniel. There I find the Dreams of Daniel. I also find the TREE. This morning doing research I found this quote:

    The Book of Daniel is different from all other books, is it’s built around a series of five dreams, or revelations, that purport to lay out, in step by step fashion, what will actually happen in the last days.

    Before the dreams I didn’t know that God talks to us in dreams. Daniel has 5 dreams, I had 3 dreams. Daniel interprets the dreams just as I do with the help of the Holy Spirit. My dreams are about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. Last is Final Judgment, Birth. God also sends me to Revelation with the symbol of the Number 7. Daniel and I are both on the same subject. Things that are to come. God also talks about the Book of Records, those that are written in the book.

    What God is telling me is that he Confirms the writings of Daniel. God also states that the NT has been tampered with. Constantine has a big hand in that!

  123. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    We certainly agree that God can communicate to us in dreams and visions. So I would like to know what Father Robert has to say about this. Were sacred dreams and visions only for the Prophets, and no longer used in these times?

    Would having a vision or religious dream in today’s world amount to necromancy and sorcery?

    Spiritually yours,

  124. irishanglican says:

    Mel Steffor,

    As to number 1, yes indeed! Rev.1;1 / Dan.2:28, etc.
    # 2, Angels were created by God before the first and only creation. But God Himself is not a creation, but the eternal self-existent God-Elohim.
    # 3, Angels represent God, mainly in the heavenly realm, Rev. 4. And in the worship of God! (Isa. 6:2-3)
    #4, Yes indeed, see Gen. 18:1-8, but note also here is a “theophany” (A temporary physical manifestation or revelation of God to an individual, as distinct from a vision. Also distinguished from the Incarnation. It is an OT aspect.) In Gen. 18:1-8 it is pre-incarnate personal appearance of the Son of God, who is “the image of God”! Christ is the Lord of all the angels!
    #5, Yes, Luke 1:26
    #6, Yes, see Rev. chap. 16
    #7, No!

    The Eastern Orthodox Church recognizes nine “choirs” or groups of angels as found in the Scriptures: Angels, Archangels, Powers, Authorities, Principalities, Dominions, Thrones, Cherubim, annd Seraphim. (See Gen. 3:24 / Isa. 6:2 / Eph. 1:21 / Col.1:16 / 1 Thes. 4:16 / 1 Pet. 3:22.)

    Daniel was a Jewish man, created by God, and not an angel! See, Daniel 1:3-4.

    The major role of the angels is one of messengers, but in the NT covenant they serve with Christ in His humanity, and are “ministers” (servants) in our salvation, Heb. 1:14.

    Sincerely In Christ,
    Fr. Robert

  125. thegodguy says:

    Dear Fr. Robert,

    While we are waiting for Mel’s response, your description of angels as serving with Christ in our salvation seems to kick the Holy Spirit in the seat of the pants (or whatever).

    I thought that in your Trinitarian Doctrine that it was the job of the Holy Spirit to work out the effects of salvation. Your deities may be guilty of crossing union lines!

    Besides, things are starting to get awfully crowded with three Gods and all those angels trying to save me.

    Spiritually yours,

  126. Mel Steffor says:

    Thank you for your answer Fr. Robert. I agree with your answer. I still have to figure out why King David is at the Resurrection.

    To God Guy,
    I don’t think my dream is necromany or sorcery. After the dreams I too did not know who the dreams were from. I was confused about the meaning. My first thought was that my Earth Father some how could talk to me in dreams. I thought it could not be from God. God would not talk to me. God is to busy for me. I am not someone important enough for God to talk to. Then when Jesus came in and showed me his name written in Stone on the ground. I knew who the dreams were from then. It was a moment for me. A moment of realization. I was excited, I told my friends and my family. I said look come and see the stone. They were not interested. God would not talk to me they thought. The stone is real, everyone can see it. It is in the grave yard. The stone means nothing without the dream.

    The first dream was not from my Earth Father, it was from my Heavenly Father. My Earth father was a symbol. God used my Earth Father so that I could realize the dream was from my Heavenly Father. I recognized my Earth Father, I would not know what my Father in Heaven looked like.

    Some people said Satan or Spirits are talking to me. I don’t think Satan can deliver Dreams. Satan does not know our thoughts. Is that correct? Can Satan read our thoughts? Can Satan deliver dreams? My mother said the dream could be from Spirits. I asked her what kind of spirits? Isn’t God in charge of all the Spirits, if spirits exist at all. She does not believe in God, yet she thinks spirits exist. I gave all of this great thought.

  127. Mel Steffor says:

    To God Guy,
    Now, I am not totally off the subject. In your last paragraph you write.

    In fact, this is one of the biggest secrets concerning the Second Coming.
    REVELATION is the Lord’s coming back to reveal these deeper things to us!

    This is what you wrote. I read, you seek deeper meaning. When you wrote that you had no idea that, God has returned with a REVELATION. God has returned and he has more to tell you. He has revealed much. Yet, he has more to reveal to us. He will however keep some secrets from us. God has not finished talking. I think he brought me here. Some say Welcome, some say Go Away, I think God has found an ear.

    The Year of Judgment however, will remain a secret. He did not reveal that to me.

  128. thegodguy says:

    Dear Mel,

    The Second Coming is NOW! What is being revealed are deeper doctrines that have been concealed within the literal understanding of Scripture. This is what Swedenborg has helped us gain access to!

    Spiritually yours,

  129. Melanie Stefine says:

    I was reading up on Angelic Visitations and I found an interesting site titled, “George Washingtons Angelic Visitation”. This was the first I had ever heard that our founding Father was visited my an Angel. The story was printed in the News papers some 60 years after his death. In the vision the Angel shows George 3 wars to take place on American soil. This first was the revolutionary war, the second was the civil war. The third and worst war is yet to come. The angel desribes a war so great that she can not be stopped. This war is to happen around the time that Jesus returns and it is to occur on American soil.

  130. thegodguy says:

    Dear Melanie,

    Thank you for sharing that news with my readers.

    The only great war that I am aware of that occurs at the time of the Lord’s return will NOT occur on American soil. It will take place within the psycho-scape of the human heart and mind. It will also be a shake-up of our current world views, both scientifically and theologically. This is why the Lord promised to make all things “anew.”

    Angels know these things from a SPIRITUAL interpretation of Scripture.

    Because this great conflict occurs within the “soil” of the human spirit it represents humankind’s resistance to new revelations – especially the deeper knowledge contained in the Holy Word.

    This great battle has already taken place in some individuals, is currently taking place with others, while most people still await its commencement.

    Spiritually yours,

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